Composr Community Chats: Your Feedback Requested

What do YOU want out of weekly community chats?

Greetings,

My name is Jacob Kauffmann. You may recognize me from around here, but if you don't, I make a Composr-powered website called Nerd on the Street, and a few months ago, Chris asked me to start hosting live video chats for the community.

This was supposed to be our 8th week of chatting, but due to low attendance and technical issues, we deferred the meeting until next week.

Chris and I have gone back and forth through email about the format of the chats, what they should be like, what we should talk about, etc... but in light of this week's issues, I think it would benefit us to get some public feedback about this topic.

What are Composr Community Chats (currently)?

Every week, we have a group video call (similar to Google Hangouts, but through a platform called Jitsi Meet.) The call is open for anyone to join. When we start, anyone is allowed to ask questions about Composr, which are usually answered by Chris due to his in-depth knowledge of Composr. After we've answered any questions, we move on to Chris's agenda topics, which tend to be discussion points involving things Chris wants feedback or ideas about with regards to improving Composr.

Issues we've had with this format:

Low attendance - Even on a normal week, we only have around 4 people in the chat. For anyone reading this, I want to know: is this because you don't know about the chats, you're busy during the chats, or you're not interested in the chats? Composr has a relatively small userbase to begin with, so I'm wondering if the number of people willing to dedicate time and put themselves out there in a video call is just too low for us to have a successful event every week. Ways we could fix this include switching to IRC or another text-chat service, or switching to Mumble or another voice-only option. (Discord supports both text channels and voice channels as well as anonymous participation, although it's proprietary and may not be professional enough for us.)

Lack of topics/participation - Even for the people who do show up, we've been running out of things to talk about the past few weeks. More attendance would naturally help with this, but I'm also interested in if there's anything we could do to make the chats more friendly to newcomers, so they feel more comfortable talking. If you haven't been to any of the chats, you could do us a favor by taking a look at any of the recordings and letting us know if you spot any ways we could change our behavior to appear less intimidating/more inviting to open discussion.

Technical issues - Chris's initial idea was to use Google Hangouts for the chats. On our first week, Google had not yet updated Hangouts to work in Firefox Quantum, so we had an easy reason to switch to Jitsi Meet, which I also prefer anyway because it's open-source and doesn't require a signup. However, we've observed that Jitsi Meet doesn't handle low-bandwidth connections very well, often disabling video and not giving us a manual override to turn it back on. Despite its flaws, Jitsi Meet is probably the best open option right now, although Nextcloud just announced their own video conferencing plugin that I'm open to trying.

Another aspect of the technical issues has to do with me, and I'm feeling a little bad about that. Being a technical co-host of the chats and also responsible for recording, connection issues on my end can halt the entire chat. For the first few years of Nerd on the Street, I had a dedicated ethernet connection to my family's router. However, my living situation has changed, and I'm currently stuck with a choice of Wi-Fi or ethernet-over-powerline adapters. Wi-Fi, being contention-based, is an obvious issue for video chats and live streaming. Ethernet-over-powerline adapters should theoretically be better, but for one reason or another, it doesn't work well in my current home. All of that said, if my poor networking setup is becoming an issue for the entire group, then we're going to reach a point where someone else with a better connection needs to take over my job, at least until I get better internet (which may not be until 2019.)

Please tell me what you think about the chats! What do YOU want the chats to be? Is there anything we could do to make you comfortable with and interested in joining? Or are you just not interested in this kind of real-time discussion?

I know Chris thinks these chats are very important for the Composr community, but after seeing very little participation and now having canceled an event, I think something needs to change if we're going to continue. It doesn't make sense to put in all this time and effort if it's not going to help the project. But I do think that chats like these have the potential to be helpful. I look forward to any and all replies.

I would love to be attending the chats, but apart from time constraints, I have low bandwidth issues.
When I'm not occupied during the chat period, I watch it live on YouTube-you can control the video quality there, thus things are stable for me to watch.
I would plan to attend a session, if I could do it over audio (this isn't the most ideal option anyway).

enelson, I think you're in Africa right? It's interesting the bandwidth situation, I hadn't thought about that, but I can imagine it affects others too. So far I think (with one exception) everyone attending is either in UK, USA, or Canada where (if you're not in the countryside) broadband is usually very good. I would like to encourage a broader participation, and issues like bandwidth, and possible fluency in English, or very strong accents, would be a factor there for properly the majority of the world population.

I think also a big part of it is people feel shy. I've been told as much at least once. For what it's worth, I'm actually a big introvert (like most programmers), so I am pushing my limits when I'm doing this myself, but I do think it is very worthwhile.

Maybe in the future we can consider me just doing a regular solo Google Hangout stream while keeping an eye on any comments coming in (or possibly ask people to chat via IRC). It'd be a simpler format of me just doing some coding and then people would have the opportunity to chime in with questions or comments.
Then actual meetup chats like the current format could be rarer, e.g. every couple of month - and maybe we could promote those harder by sending out newsletters.
I know Jacob finds the programming stuff boring (), but I think if it's less formal, regular, and he doesn't have to do any editing, that complaint would subside somewhat.

I should mention I've been struct with flu really badly this January, like a lot of people. Most of my symptoms are gone, but I still have a really nasty cough, so I'm hoping I can do the next chat with a lot less talking.

Also I do think we need to discuss a fallback plan if Jacob is having bandwidth issues.

I'm not an expert in streaming solutions myself by any measure.

I think we're not using YouTube Live because everyone needs explicitly inviting into the video stream. Is that correct Jacob?

I can probably just use a screen recorder to record things myself if needed. Is that all I need to do Jacob? I have decent paid software for that if need be, and you could take a back seat if it was necessary.

enelson said

I would love to be attending the chats, but apart from time constraints, I have low bandwidth issues.
When I'm not occupied during the chat period, I watch it live on YouTube-you can control the video quality there, thus things are stable for me to watch.
I would plan to attend a session, if I could do it over audio (this isn't the most ideal option anyway).

From “Post #3,694”, 13th January 2018, 9:56 pm

Thank you for your response. Are you saying that audio isn't the most ideal option? I do know that YouTube's quality controls are a big plus for anyone watching or attempting to participate in a live stream. I'll keep in mind that we've got people that applies to.

Chris Graham said

For what it's worth, I'm actually a big introvert (like most programmers), so I am pushing my limits when I'm doing this myself, but I do think it is very worthwhile.

Chris, I think you and I are similar in that we may be introverts IRL or when we're in someone else's group, but we don't have a problem speaking when we're running our own show. I mentioned to you in an email that I'm fine with hosting a video with people I'm familiar with, but I'm less inclined to talk during the Composr chats, where I know I'm out-knowledged. And for what it's worth, I think you've been very forward during the chats we've done.

Chris Graham said

Maybe in the future we can consider me just doing a regular solo Google Hangout stream while keeping an eye on any comments coming in (or possibly ask people to chat via IRC). It'd be a simpler format of me just doing some coding and then people would have the opportunity to chime in with questions or comments.

I think that would be a more suitable format based on how the chats have gone so far.

Chris Graham said

I know Jacob finds the programming stuff boring (), but I think if it's less formal, regular, and he doesn't have to do any editing, that complaint would subside somewhat.

To be perfectly clear, I don't think the programming stuff is boring, but my viewers evidently think it's boring, judging by the extremely low view counts and watch time for Composr chats compared to other content on my network. Moving the chats to the NOTS Community channel last week was supposed to be my way of allowing you to get as in-depth as you want to without limiting you out of fear for my statistics.

Chris Graham said

I think we're not using YouTube Live because everyone needs explicitly inviting into the video stream. Is that correct Jacob?

You are confusing (or at least convoluting) two different things, Google+ Hangouts and YouTube Live. Google+ Hangouts is a video conferencing service, which requires a Google account and an invitation (by link or email) to join the call. YouTube Live is a video streaming service, which requires a YouTube account for the streamer and chatters, but not for spectators. Your confusion may stem from Hangouts On Air, which is an integration between Google+ Hangouts and YouTube Live designed to let you essentially use a Google+ Hangout as an input for your YouTube Live stream.

Chris Graham said

I can probably just use a screen recorder to record things myself if needed. Is that all I need to do Jacob? I have decent paid software for that if need be, and you could take a back seat if it was necessary.

Unless your screen recorder can output to RTMP (such as SimpleScreenRecorder for Linux), you need a live stream encoder. I would personally recommend the free, cross-platform Open Broadcaster Software. It can capture your desktop and webcam (and allow you to arrange them on a canvas), and it doubles as an encoder to send your stream to YouTube in RTMP format.

I would be happy to help you implement such streams on the Composr channel and answer any questions about the process you may have. I'll see you during the chat tomorrow if you want to discuss any aspect of it then, too.

With regards to a "fallback plan," do what you think is best for Composr. I'm happy to continue uploading recordings to NOTS Community and even letting you stream there directly, but you may feel it would benefit you more to use the Composr-branded channel. As far as bandwidth goes, and editing for that matter, I have the skill and the interest to do everything we've tried to do, and if Nerd on the Street was actually making me a full-time profit, I would have the time and resources to do it as well. But my time and resources are quite limited right now, so if you think you'll have more success continuing independent of me, I will entirely understand. Like I said, we can discuss this more tomorrow if you'd like.

Unless your screen recorder can output to RTMP (such as SimpleScreenRecorder for Linux), you need a live stream encoder

Honestly I'm not sure it's necessary. If there's a video conference anyone can join, I don't see why it also needs to be simul-casted onto YouTube, just uploaded later to YouTube.

Is there a reason people would want to watch live from YouTube when they could just be on the main conference link?

Chris Graham said

Is there a reason people would want to watch live from YouTube when they could just be on the main conference link?

From “Post #3,744”, 20th January 2018, 2:06 am

You said, "we can consider me just doing a regular solo Google Hangout stream while keeping an eye on any comments coming in." That's what I was discussing. I wasn't suggesting these things for tomorrow, maybe that's where the miscommunication was.

enelson said

I watch it live on YouTube-you can control the video quality there

From “Post #3,694”, 13th January 2018, 9:56 pm

This is one of several reasons you'd want to do a real stream rather than a conference call for a one-way format.

Edit: Other reasons include not wanting to grant camera/microphone access if you don't want to be seen as a viewer, not requiring people to sign in just to view, and making a much easier pipeline for uploading the recording later.

I'm not fully up to speed on all the features of Google Hangouts, Hangouts On Air, YouTube Live, or any other video streaming/conferencing services, but I think whichever service allows viewers to view the video stream and also access a live text chat box without having to join in with their own video or audio would work best to get more people to join in. I think Jitsi fits that well if server or bandwidth issues on their end aren't constantly going to be causing problems. Although, as more people join in text chatting, the narrow chat box on Jitsi might get to be a problem. Maybe a chatroom set up here on the compo.sr website for text chatting during a live community chat. Or, if live streaming to YouTube Live, send text chatters to that link to chat there. Or chatting on the live page at nerdonthestreet.com.

For those that don't have a camera/microphone, don't have the bandwidth, aren't native english speakers, are camera shy, or would just rather submit questions and comments via text chat, perhaps a short tutorial on how Jitsi works and how to get to the chat on Jitsi without having to use a camera and microphone might encourage more people to join in on Jitsi until a better text chat solution (if needed) can be worked out.
 

jacobgkau said

enelson said

I would love to be attending the chats, but apart from time constraints, I have low bandwidth issues.
When I'm not occupied during the chat period, I watch it live on YouTube-you can control the video quality there, thus things are stable for me to watch.
I would plan to attend a session, if I could do it over audio (this isn't the most ideal option anyway).

From “Post #3,694”, 13th January 2018, 9:56 pm

Thank you for your response. Are you saying that audio isn't the most ideal option? I do know that YouTube's quality controls are a big plus for anyone watching or attempting to participate in a live stream. I'll keep in mind that we've got people that applies to.

From “Post #3,743”, 20th January 2018, 1:57 am

I think streaming over audio is smother on low bandwidth conditions, that's why I mentioned it.
However, in cases where someone (Chris for example) has to write some code or demonstrate one thing or the other, audio won't be any good.

Chris Graham said

enelson, I think you're in Africa right? It's interesting the bandwidth situation, I hadn't thought about that, but I can imagine it affects others too. So far I think (with one exception) everyone attending is either in UK, USA, or Canada where (if you're not in the countryside) broadband is usually very good. I would like to encourage a broader participation, and issues like bandwidth, and possible fluency in English, or very strong accents, would be a factor there for properly the majority of the world population.

From “Post #3,740”, 20th January 2018, 12:59 am

Yes.
It's comparatively more costly to get access to high speed Internet here than in US ,UK etc.

jacobgkau said

Chris Graham said

Is there a reason people would want to watch live from YouTube when they could just be on the main conference link?

From “Post #3,744”, 20th January 2018, 2:06 am

You said, "we can consider me just doing a regular solo Google Hangout stream while keeping an eye on any comments coming in." That's what I was discussing. I wasn't suggesting these things for tomorrow, maybe that's where the miscommunication was.

enelson said

I watch it live on YouTube-you can control the video quality there

From “Post #3,694”, 13th January 2018, 9:56 pm

This is one of several reasons you'd want to do a real stream rather than a conference call for a one-way format.

Edit: Other reasons include not wanting to grant camera/microphone access if you don't want to be seen as a viewer, not requiring people to sign in just to view, and making a much easier pipeline for uploading the recording later.

From “Post #3,746”, 20th January 2018, 4:02 am

Thanks, that makes sense.